Worried that someone is going to “steal your idea”? What if someone takes your approach and does it better than you? If you have something that’s working…isn’t it better to shut your mouth and not tell a soul while you cash in?
These seem to be (surprisingly) some of the major concerns of those that prefer the “stealth mode” approach in their business.
In this episode, Joe and I wanted to challenge the idea that “stealth mode” is the superior model when it comes to getting your business up and running and we’ll discuss 5 major advantages to baking more transparency in your approach. If you’re old-school business like we were but want to know more about the reasons why transparency might be better for you, this is definitely a must-listen episode!
The sound quality is a bit weaker this week – sorry about that…Joe and I are both traveling right now!
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So, are you ready to head down the “transparency” path with your business? What’s holding you back? Let us know on Twitter or leave us a comment – we’d love to hear from you!
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Empire Flippers podcast. Are you sick and tired of gurus who have plenty of ideas but are short on substance? Worried that e-book you bought for $17.95 won’t bring you the personal and financial freedom you long for? Hey, you’re not alone. Join thousands of others in their pursuit of niche profits without the bullshit. Straight from your hosts, Justin and Joe from Empire Flippers.
Justin Cooke: Welcome to episode 67 of the Empire Flippers podcast. I’m your host, Justin Cooke, and I’m here with my business partner extraordinaire, Joe Magnotti. What’s going on brother?
Joe Magnotti: What’s up everybody?
Justin Cooke: We’ve got a fantastic episode lined up for you this week. We’re going to be talking about five advantages to a transparent business. But we’ve heard some people talking online recently about whether you should be in stealth mode or whether it’s better to be transparent and so we want to give our impression of that, our ideas on that, and kind of share with you the path that we took and why. Before we do that though, let’s do some updates, news and info. First thing we got is another five star iTunes review, buddy.
Joe Magnotti: Hit me up.
Justin Cooke: We’ve got [Alex L. 00:01:06] from Canada says, “Awesome podcast. Every week is filled with tons of great ideas, keeps me motivated and excited about running my business. Keep up the awesome work.” Well I appreciate it Alex. Thank you buddy.
Joe Magnotti: Isn’t that the guy you met there in Vietnam?
Justin Cooke: Yeah man. We met up for coffee, hung out a little bit, talked a little bit about his business, pretty cool. So next point I want to talk about is Google Analytics. So a lot of people talking about this online, we thought we’d throw in on this as well. Google Analytics is not going to be sharing key words, especially the long tail stuff that’s being searched for. They’re basically cutting that back. You’ve seen the, what is it Joe? The “not available” keyword.
Joe Magnotti: No, this is not the Philippines. No, “not provided” is the category.
Justin Cooke: “Not provided” keyword. [inaudible 00:01:49] a lot of people search in “Not provided” on Empire Flippers, that’s for sure.
Joe Magnotti: Yeah, and there’s a great link on search engine land, we’ll link you it in the search notes, about how it’s going up and up, the percentages over time. So it’s not something new. It’s definitely been coming. Google has been warring on us. Matt Cutts has been warning us about it. But I have to say I’m really not happy with Google on this one. I mean, it seems like you are kind of destroying people’s businesses. I mean, we kind of depend on this a little bit.
Justin Cooke: Yeah, I mean if you look at guys like HitTail or whatever and they’re going to take a big hit with this. But you know what’s interesting is they talk about doing it because privacy issues, right? With NSA type stuff. They’re trying to make it more private. But it’s pretty convenient that if you want that same data that you can get it through paid traffic. And it’s pretty convenient for them. So I’m not sure what the real deal is with this, but you should be aware of that. Those are going to be going to virtually zero.
Justin Cooke: Another thing is that, we’ve gotten some emails about this, and I just want to make this clear, is that in our guide we mentioned the Google Keyword tool. Obviously that’s not the Google Keyword Planner. And there are some differences. Definitely some the screenshots and stuff are not going to match up. But the general idea is the same. The exact match keywords we look for. Obviously you can’t get phrase so broad anymore, that’s problematic. But really guys, I mean, we use LongTailPro for all of our keyword research anyway. We don’t use the Google Keyword tool straight up or the Google Keyword Planner. So all the details are still the same. The process is still the same. Just the actual screens might be a little bit different.
Joe Magnotti: Yeah, I think people just think about the overall process. And what we’re trying to accomplish here, more than the exact screen by screen how do I do something. And I know for somebody that’s new that might be a little bit tedious to figure out, but LongTailPro is such a fast and easy tool to use that I might just start there. Because honestly the keyword … the Google Keyword Planner, I don’t really like the UI. I think it sucks and I think that you’re probably best off starting with LongTailPro
Justin Cooke: Next one I want to cover as we have a conversion expert looking at our products and services pages, he’s going to be digging through and kind of changing some of the copy. Trying to determine what converts the best. And especially with some of our products that maybe aren’t as clear, hopefully clearing those up for potential buyers so they have a better idea and understanding about what they’re getting involved in. I’m excited about this. Let’s see what we can do as far as conversions go there. But I mean, obviously conversions is one of those great things where if you improve it just a bit, your sales can go way up. So it’ll be interesting to see how this works out.
Joe Magnotti: Yeah, it’s something I’ve really been wanting to do and we just, you and I just just don’t have the time dedicated to it and we don’t have the skills either. We need someone to provide us with an end to end solution and I think we found someone. He’s going to start in November and I’m pretty excited to get our products and services page a little more slimmed down and better converting.
Justin Cooke: Last part I want to talk about is we are adding a shopping cart to Empire Flippers. So the cool thing here is that this will allow for better upsells, allow us to include different packages or products together, so you’d be able to check out and order multiple packages or products. I think this will be better for our bottom line. I think we’ll potentially get more sales out of it. And definitely the tracking and the delivery I think will be even better for the customers that are purchasing today.
Joe Magnotti: Yeah, it’s a bit of a dog to set up, but we’re getting there slowly but surely. And there’s a lot of little moving parts that make a shopping cart work. I thought it would be a lot easier than it is, but apparently, if you design a site without a shopping cart and then you try to add one later, you really have to change a lot of workflow. So we’re working on it.
Justin Cooke: All right, but I think we’re good. Let’s get right into the heart of this week’s episode.
Speaker 1: This is the Empire Flippers podcast.
Justin Cooke: All right man, but before we even get into this episode let’s talk a little bit about where the evidence for this episode came from. There’s a thread and a membership group that we’re a part of called “Transparency versus Stealth”. And it basically was talking about different business models and are you very clear and upfront about what you’re doing or are you more stealthy and hiding stuff kind of behind the scenes. And we want to talk about this a little bit. I was actually really surprised with how many people choose the stealth approach and some of their reasoning for doing that. So I wanted to see what we can take this episode to kind of rake down our thoughts on it, especially in regards to transparency and show you how you can build a transparent business without putting yourself at too much risk.
Joe Magnotti: Yeah. And then I think there’s no secrets here. We have a transparent business and we’re big advocates of it because it’s worked so well for us. And I can understand why you wouldn’t want to be transparent at first. Maybe you have … For blueskiboots.org, if you just have some really basic niche website, yeah. We’re not talking about being transparent with that. We’re talking about being transparent with your business as a whole. And your process and having a face and being out there and talking about both of successes and your failures, how much money you’re making, how much money you could be making, that kind of stuff.
Justin Cooke: So it seems like a lot of these people who are entrepreneurs are looking at business as zero sum game. Basically, if I’m going to get something, I’m taking it from someone else. I’m taking food off the table of somebody else. And I don’t think that’s necessarily the best way to view it. My saying it won’t make it true for you necessarily, but I really do believe that making a bigger pie as possible. So the more you can promote the industry, you’re making the industry even bigger. So it’s not like you’re taking it from someone else necessarily. It’s that you’re making your industry bigger overall and everyone … there’s more scraps on the table for everybody.
Joe Magnotti: Yeah, I mean again, is this true on a particular keyword basis? No. If someone ranks number one and you rank number two, that’s the definition of a zero sum game. But if you’re able to increase more traffic to that particular keyword, then everybody wins.
Justin Cooke: That’s exactly right, buddy. That’s what I’m talking about it. The other thing too is that I think the protectionist model is a symptom of a weak mindset. So you have people who go, “Oh, I don’t want my idea to be stolen. Oh, my ideal was stolen. Okay, I guess I can’t do this anymore. I guess I have to do something else. That was my one good idea.” Whereas as an entrepreneur, you’re coming up with new ideas all the time. If you’re deeply involved in the space, you’re coming up with new ideas on a regular basis. So many ideas, you can’t chase them all down.
Joe Magnotti: Yeah, I mean just look at our history. We were more protectionist when we just had TryBPO and we really didn’t do this whole transparency bit until we did AdSense Flippers. And we come from a more traditional corporate business background. But I think that paradigm is being broken now, especially in the online world and you really need to pay attention to the new way of doing business and make sure that you fit into that. Because otherwise you’re just leaving so much on the table. If we had started doing that back when we started trying TryBPO in 2009, we would be so much further along right now.
Justin Cooke: Yes buddy, that’s so true. And I think you bring up a good point is that, we’re not the transparent guys from the get go. This was a mind shift for us over time and we eventually saw the light to head in this direction. So if you’re kind of on the bubble, like you’d rather have it more transparent business but you have some worries, hopefully we’ll able to address some of those in this podcast. But there are some, I think, legitimate reasons for stealth. If you have a legal obligation to do so, if you’re looking to build anticipation with your audience. But ultimately I think the thing that is going to determine whether or not your business should be more transparent is how big your moat is.
Justin Cooke: Like Joe was saying, blueskiboots.org, if that’s your entire business model … What’d you talk about before, niche sites only not being not a great business model on their own. But if you only have blueskiboots.org and you’re worried about other people finding it, yeah, I mean, you don’t have a very big moat. But if you’re building another type of business. I mean generally, any business that involves you, that involves the uniqueness of you and the work that you’re putting in is going to be harder to replicate. So the bigger the moat, the more transparent you’re able to be.
Justin Cooke: All right, man. Let’s get right into it with our five main points. The first one I want to bring up with a transparent business is authority. The fact that you’re openly talking about everything, that you’re interviewing experts, that you are deeply ingrained in the space and the niche is going to show other people that you have the authority in that niche. So people are going to look to you as someone who knows what the hell they’re talking about.
Joe Magnotti: Yeah, I mean, again, look at our history with AdSense Flippers, building and selling websites on Flippa. We just became the absolute authority for doing that by talking about the whole process and how we were doing it and our failures, our successes, how it worked, what tactics we think that other people could use. These kinds of things really, really worked for us and I think that if you can leverage those tactics for other businesses, you’ll be just as successful.
Justin Cooke: And people do this all the time, niching down. It’s not just AdSense Flippers. I mean, look at John McIntyre with email response guy. He’s the email response guy. Look at Damian Thompson who’s looking to become the Ontraport guy. You want Ontraport set up or Office Autopilot, he’s your guy. But people who niche down can become experts in their small space and they do it by sharing exactly how they do it, all the work that they put in. And a lot of times people aren’t going to want to do it themselves. They’re going to look to you to do a for them. Maybe some of them are going to come to you and they’re going to say, “Okay, I’ll follow their methods and I’ll use some of their tactics and strategies.” And they’re going to love you for it for sharing all the information. And they don’t order your services necessarily. And that’s a percentage, but they’re going to tell other people about you. They’re going to spread the word. And then you’re going to get actual customers, paying customers, who come to you as well.
Joe Magnotti: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s well said, Justin. The authority comes by describing the process upfront and clearly, not behind a paywall. So if you just say, “Look, just pay me and don’t worry about it. I’ll show you how I do it later.” That kind of seems a little bit scammy on the Internet. Whereas if you give it all away for free and say, “This is exactly how I’m going to do it, go ahead and do it yourself if you want to.” And most people are just not going to do that. If they really want your service, they’re going to pay for you to do it that way.
Justin Cooke: It just depends. If they have the money they’re going to pay or they don’t have the money they’re going to do it themselves. But I mean, you don’t want paying customers who don’t have the money. Those aren’t the customers you want. If they’re borrowing from someone to get the money to pay you, no, no, no, no. They should just do it themselves and you’re giving them a free and clear path and opportunity to do so.
Justin Cooke: The second point when we’re talking about is inbound marketing. I know this is a big one for you, Joe. By being very transparent, by sharing your entire business, you’re able to create leads that come to you rather than you having to chase them down. And we’ve been in the telemarketing game with the mortgage business, we did it with Local SEO, and it’s a rough business. I mean, it’s pulling teeth to get people in to sign up. Whereas with inbound marketing where you’re sharing very clearly, you’re getting people to go, “Oh, I love what you said about this. How can I do business with you? How can I order something from you?”
Joe Magnotti: Yeah. I mean, it’s sad that we had to learn this the hard way. If we had only known this in 2008 and done it with outsourcing, I think we’d be a little more successful than we are right down. But yeah, I mean, I hate sales. You have to be good at some sales to be an entrepreneur and you have to be able to do it. But I hate doing it. And when you’re transparent, I think a lot of other people share this fear with me, is that they don’t want to have to do sales. When you’re transparent, you don’t have to do as much sales because the people come in naturally and are interested in your products and services.
Justin Cooke: A big part of sales is getting people to know, like, and trust you. Where a lot of that is done if you’re transparent because they already, they listen to your podcast, they read your blog posts, they see you and interacted with you previously in email or whatever. So they’ve done some back and forth, they know who you are, they know where you’re coming from, and it’s so much easier as you business with someone who already knows your approach.
Justin Cooke: So our third point I’m going to talk about a little bit is clarity trumps vagueness. And you’ll see this in any blog posts. A good example is Pat Flynn’s posts on how to start an awesome podcast. He crushed it with that post. It is fantastic. Just point for point, if you follow that to a T, it’ll tell you exactly how to start an amazing podcast. So I mean, having this level detail and very, very step by step, is way better than talking about this big kind of startup-ish that you’re going to start and asking for an email. I mean, that does work. I’ve seen people do that but it’s lame.
Joe Magnotti: It is. And it’s much easier to point to what you’ve done and what you are about to do if it’s all transparent online. Whereas if you’re more vague about it, you say, “Well after you pay me in $19.95 I’ll show you how to do it.” It’s kind of like, well, if it’s that good then why don’t you just give it away and find another way to make money out of it.
Justin Cooke: You think about Andrew Youderian. I mean, he is extremely transparent over there at ecommercefuel.com. Lends out everything, he’s done really great details on vetting a site and how much it’s actually worth and running through the financials. And just great, great stuff. He wouldn’t have sold nearly as many of his courses if he wasn’t that transparent, if he didn’t share all the stuff about his business. But because he does, you trust him as the authority in the e-commerce space. I mean, he just is an authority an you know it because he puts out legit stuff. Now compare that or pair that with someone who on the Warrior Forum says, “I’ve crushed it in e-commerce. I don’t give away my niches, but buy my $297 course”, or whatever. Like randomly, maybe here’s his fake name, John Smith or whatever. Who the hell is that guy and why would I want to buy from him?
Joe Magnotti: Yeah. And he has this huge long order page, sales page, kind of thing.
Justin Cooke: Okay, so it works, but that’s just a shitty business model. It doesn’t work great. I mean, you’re going to sell a lot more by being transparent and being clear in everything that you do and your approach. If you’re very clear, that’s something that people can share. So our buddy Damien, the Ontraport guy, the Office Autopilot guy, before he was this marketing kind of dude that did some marketing-y stuff, it was really confusing to try to explain that to people on what he does. And I can’t recommend him to anyone. I can’t share what he was doing with anyone because it’s vague. It’s not very clear. So yeah,
Joe Magnotti: Yeah, very hard to get referrals when people don’t know exactly what you do. I think it’s more interesting to talk to people that are transparent. If you’re talking about your business and you’re able to clearly talk about what you do and not be so vague, then it makes it more interesting. You’re more of a dinner conversation than somebody else would be. And normally when people are very vague with me, I don’t know, I have trouble trusting them as well.
Justin Cooke: Sketchy, right? And you’re like, “Why are they so vague?” And this protectionist like, “I got to guard my secret, my precious.” They’re pulling a Gollum on me. Yeah. I just, I don’t get that man. And that kind of leads into our fourth point, is the broader reach you get by being transparent. People think of us, or some people think we’re just the niche site guys. [inaudible 00:16:51], I think, is that our audience, especially when it comes to the podcast, is so much more broad than that. We have people that are building businesses that have nothing to do with niche sites, but they dig our take on outsourcing, on building teams, on building process. And they have nothing to do with it sites, but they dig that part of the show. And I think when you’re transparent, you’re going to be sharing other parts of your business as well that are interesting to a much wider crowd or a much wider set of people.
Joe Magnotti: Yeah. And when you’re transparent, you’re going to have so much extra content out there that you’re just going to attract a broader base of people. By being stealth, the very nature of the game means there’s not going to be more information of you out there, so you’re going to have to find other way to bring people into your product or service. And that may mean paid traffic, that may mean other means, but you’re not going to be able to just talk about your business.
Justin Cooke: Our fifth point we want to talk about is, and this is a little surprising actually. When we started being transparent, our business started opening, opening the kimono, so to speak. We had a misconception, we had a worry that by being vulnerable, where by putting ourselves out there, that we were going to be way more open to haters. To People calling out all kinds of stuff, really being problematic for us. And just painful stuff. But it’s not true at all. In fact, being vulnerable about our business opens a conversation that allows other people to see, okay if they’re that … They’re sharing, they’re really sharing a piece of what they’re doing or a piece of their business with me, I’m more open to share myself and make myself vulnerable too. Do you know what I mean, Joe?
Joe Magnotti: Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. And I think that this is was a hard pill for me to swallow because I did not believe that this would be the case. But there are genuinely nice people out there. I mean, we’ve had a handful maybe, of haters, once in a while in the comments or something, but nothing really that bad or big, knock on wood. And it’s been very nice if anything, opening the kimono and being very honest about our failures. And being vulnerable has helped us connect with people that we never would have met before.
Justin Cooke: Yeah, I think being vulnerable, aside from the hater part, maybe it does give you less haters. But I think the more important or key thing, as you mentioned, is the fact that people are more open about themselves so they’re more willing to be vulnerable themselves when they contact us, when they share their stories. And by having that openness, we’re able to honestly take a look and be able to help each other. Help them with their business and they’re able to give us honest, critical feedback. And it’s really been fantastic for our business. So the last part we want to mention, we want to talk about some misconceptions that people seem to have about the transparent business model. And these are big ones. These are things that if you’re kind of hesitant about being transparent in your business, these are probably things you’ve thought of or worries that you have holding you back. But the first one, I’d say Joe, is the big one. That people are going to steal my idea.
Joe Magnotti: Yeah. I mean again, if it’s blueskiboots.org, I understand. But for the majority of businesses out there, it’s going to be very, very tough to steal your business and replicate the entire idea if you’re being transparent and open about it. I mean, it’s just not going to be … Yes, someone could come along and create a marketplace to buy and sell sites and to build sites and to have all the other products and services that we have, but they can’t recreate all the history and all the ups and downs that we have and the podcasts and the personalities behind it. They can’t recreate that tomorrow. They might be able to recreate it eventually, but it’s going to take a long time.
Justin Cooke: And the way that has to be executed would be completely different from one person or one group to another. So the fact that the idea is taken, I just think that’s such a weak sauce answer. Like, “Oh my God, my idea was taken. I’m just screwed now.”
Joe Magnotti: Yeah, definitely. Definitely if it’s just the domain name, I mean, if you came up with this neat name for a company and you thought it was so awesome and then someone went ahead and registered that domain name, so what? Change the domain name a little bit. It’s not a big deal.
Justin Cooke: Yeah, it’s not the biggest deal. And I just think it’s weak. That’s probably the thing that, “Oh, they stole my idea. Oh, I guess that’s a good reason for me not to get started.” It’s the resistance. “Oh, that’s a good reason for me not to get started.” And I’ll have a story and I can tell friends years from now about why I wasn’t successful and how this guy stole my idea and made $1 million with that because of my own lame ass reasoning. I’m being a little harsh on this, but you see what I’m saying, Joe?
Joe Magnotti: Yeah, ideas are cheap. Execution is really what it is. I mean, it’s going to take a lot of hard work to bring most of these ideas to fruition. So yeah, I wouldn’t be worried about that so much.
Justin Cooke: I saw another thing that said, “Only giveaway ideas you won’t use.” So only the ones that you wouldn’t use yourself, which I don’t know if I took this the right way, but I kind of got out of that giveaway crappy ideas. And I don’t think that’s where you should be at all. In fact, I think you should be giving away good ideas or great ideas. Maybe they weren’t things that you would be able to execute on so you’re giving them away. Or maybe there are things that you would like to, but you mention it, and now you’re got people contacting you because they go, “Oh, that’s a great idea. I’d love to work with you on the project.” And now you’ve got a JV potential or a JV partner potentially on the project that’s willing to put in some work on it as well. I mean, talking about it is the best way to actually get it done.
Joe Magnotti: Yeah, I think that’s very true. And especially for us, I mean, we come across all these little tools and simple services that we think of that would be a great advantage to the Internet and we just don’t have time to execute them. And hopefully somebody out there is listening and writing them down and getting them done.
Justin Cooke: We talked about this earlier, the zero sum game versus making a bigger pie. And I think by sharing these good to great ideas, you’re actually boosting your market. You’re making your potential market and the pie bigger. The other thing is that I hear is that people are worried that everyone is worried about their next move. “Oh, what are we going to do next?” And, “Oh, what’s this? I don’t want to give that away too soon”, or whatever. Well, that’s ridiculous. No one cares about your business as much as you do. Nobody. You’re not Elon Musk. You’re not Richard Branson.
Joe Magnotti: Yeah. The idea that you’re playing this high level chess game. Yes, some of these guys are, but-
Justin Cooke: You’re not listening to our show-
Joe Magnotti: [crosstalk 00:23:12]. And you and your small business shouldn’t be so afraid to give away a few loops that you’re thinking about doing, even publicly, because it’s not like your competitors or are sitting there saying, “Oh, what’s Mr. Jones going to do next? And I’ll just copy what he does.” Because probably your market’s not big enough to be able to copy that.
Justin Cooke: There’s another advantage, I think, about having a transparent business model. Some people think that having your secret profit streams or keeping them secret from everyone else is better because it protects them a bit. But there’s a problem that goes with that. If you’re secret with your profit streams and kind of what you’re doing in your business, especially when you’re starting out, it gives you reason to diverge or do things that maybe wouldn’t be in line with your goals or your long-term kind of values for the business. And so it allows you to weasel or snake through something. Whereas if you have your line in the sand, if you say, “Okay, here’s who I am, here’s what I do,” People hold you accountable. You’re held accountable because you’re so transparent in your business approach.
Joe Magnotti: Yeah. You have something to point to that you said or late in the past and you have to be able to live by that. And I think that’s valuable. It’s not as constricting as you think it might be. So it helps you stay the course. You can still pivot if you need to, but you have to explain that. And I think that that’s good.
Justin Cooke: So yeah, I mean, there are reasons to be stealth. Just to kind of reiterate, there are reasons to be stealth and there are reasons, obviously, to keep your niches private, especially if they don’t have much of a moat around them. But for the majority of you that would be considering a transparent business model, I’d really recommend giving it a go. I mean, it’s opened our eyes to the possibilities as far as what we’re able to do with this model and it’s been fantastic. I would never go back. I feel that a curtain has been lifted or a veil has been lifted from our eyes. Right, Joe? I mean, do you feel the same way?
Joe Magnotti: Yeah, I really do too. And I think any new business, I would really want this approach over the old stealthy, traditional approach.
Justin Cooke: Yeah buddy, this is the way we roll. So let’s get right into our tips, tricks, and plans for the future.
Speaker 1: You are listening to the Empire Flippers podcast with Justin and Joe.
Justin Cooke: So our plans for the future. Joe and I are going to be on a podcasting panel at DC Bangkok. We’re going to be at a meet up with couple hundred other expat entrepreneurs from around the world that are building their businesses as location independent businesses and non-location independent businesses. We’re going talking about the power of podcasts and kind of what we’ve done to grow ours to the point that it is today. One thing we’d love to hear from you is feedback. So if there’s something stand out on the Empire Flippers podcast, is there something you’d like to see us do in the future? I would really like you to let us know the comments and then we’ll make sure that we include that in our panel discussion coming up next week.
Joe Magnotti: Yeah, I’m really excited about this panel. It should be pretty cool. I mean, I think podcasting for me is definitely an easier medium than blogging. Talking is obviously easier than writing. So I’m excited to talk to other people that are trying to get their podcast started and I’m excited to hear from you guys about what you think we do well, what we could do better, and what we should mention on this panel.
Justin Cooke: Well, that’s it for episode 67 of the Empire Flippers podcast. Thanks for being with us. Make sure to check us out on Twitter at Empire Flippers and we’ll see you next week.
Joe Magnotti: Bye bye everybody.
Speaker 1: You’ve been listening to the Empire Flippers podcast with Justin and Joe. Be sure to hit up empireflippers.com for more. That’s empireflippers.com. Thanks for listening.
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